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Re: Internet Core Routing - Ethernet

  • From: Bob Martinez
  • Date: Sun Sep 29 01:18:00 2002

Valdis:

Hmm... so if somebody posts to the list with the problem, and somebody else saw
that same issue and got a fix from the vendor, they need to send it to the
vendor for comment, or they can say "Oh, you're being bit by bug (can't say
because it would identify the vendor) in a (vendor model you can't say) several
hops upstream from you".
Is this a problem?  Not on my team.

> talk about Internet core routing in those terms. Sure, all vendors suck,
> but some suck WAY more than others. I think we all know the names. I would

And how did we learn the names? Let's see.. Cisco, Juniper, Proteon, Bay,
Dude, this is exactly what I'm talking about.  You didn't mention my vendor.

add whatever names you want. You probably have your own opinions on what each piece of gear is good at.
I'm pretty much good at any vendor, not great. Some I prefer more than others. I hate wearing my sunglasses to work!

Now, did you actually *buy* and *use* all of that gear yourself?
Friends in the community are my most trusted resource.

 Or did
you let the common knowledge base called NANOG help you out?
It kept me faithful in a single vendor for awhile. I still kinda like that vendor.

Remember that
learning from the mistakes and mishaps of others is a lot cheaper than doing
them yourself...
No mistakes to report, sir. NANOG keeps me informed. It is invaluable when used for operations. The Melissa virus, the WTC disaster, business disasters. I didn't mention the names of service providers, but I consider them to be vendors as well. Let's focus on traffic congestion, resource allocation, problems, fixes, reports, and other issues. A vendor that releases an official press release is more than welcome on NANOG. Up to you gues. I'm just aginst opinionated vendor information coming from NANOG. Moderate yourself.

> now way more than I ever did about token ring. Wake up. How many routes
> can vendor X support with IBGP Nailed Routes? What is the convergence time
> for 100,000 routes? Does vendor Z have wire-speed ACL,s, PBR, MPLS? 10GigE?

Which would you trust for any of these numbers - a salesdroid *saying* a
number, or 5 different people on the NANOG list who have all seen a much
lower-performance number out in the field?
Must I answer this? I trust myself more than anyone else, that is for sure. I know how to build a network without making too many mistakes, but I always seem to fix them and keep the customer (user) happy. Usually I fix them before they become big. Covey taught me that.

I can build a network with any vendor. Just like you. Vendor does NOT MATTER TO ME! If you're posting on NANOG and you don't feel the same, perhaps you'd better unsubscribe. The other option may be to study Ethernet.

How helpful would this list be if vendors had the right to squelch any
adverse publicity?
No one said squelch. I don't see squelching on the charter for NANOG. Announce as loud as you want to. Be like other mailing lists and moderate it. Send it to the vendor first. If the vendor doesn't help you, post it. Just like they do with the abuse lists. This is operational. I doubt if you'll ever need to send anything to NANOG. ALL OF THE VENDORS WANT TO HELP YOU THE BEST THAT THEY CAN!

Everything else you said (below) makes you look like the mad scientist from my POV. My R&D budget is down 72% from last year. RPR? RUCRAZY? Look forward to seeing you on the battlefield while I chop you to shreds. Not a single ATM project on the map nowadays huh? MPLS is out there, but who needs it 'cept for certain situations sometimes driven by business needs. When I need it, I hope it is over Ethernet.

Wouldn't you rather have a reliable, redundant L2 core with isolated failures and fast recovery? Isn't it just a circuit switched verses packet switched argument? Who cares about the digital wrapper! Ethernet is my digital wrapper of choice because of vendor chipsets supporting it and quality product. It meets my requirements today. My real world requirements. There are many examples of Ethernet in the internet core today. I know of many service providers using another vendor besides the two favorites on NANOG. They have reference customers. I am one of them. I've been using them for over 3 years and I have no major complaints.

Ethernet: 2 (Mike Lieber did not challenge Ethernet as a technology)
Valdis: 1

Bobby

> 2. Ethernet is the technology.

Excuse me if I chuckle, having heard THAT before in the last 2 decades or so.

I've learned to not take *anybody* seriously when they say something is "THE"
anything. Structured programming wasn't the end-all, nor was ATM, nor was
Java, nor will XML or Ethernet. Yes, 10G-E will probably see wide deployment.
But I'll make a prediction - there will be something else coming out to
replace it long before it finishes replacing what's out there now.

(For bonus points, compare the level-1 media characteristics of the original
10mbit-over-thickwire with the 10gig-over-optical, and ask yourself if there's
anything in common other than the name. It's amazingly reminiscent of the
saying "I don't know what language number-crunchers will use 20 years from now,
but it will be called Fortran"....)
--
Valdis Kletnieks
Computer Systems Senior Engineer
Virginia Tech

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